Fatine remains resilient

"I will never leave Ian….for only death can tear us apart"
Monday, December 14th, 2009 10:17:00
Fatine2

Fatine Young a.k.a Mohammed Fazdil Min Bahari

KUALA LUMPUR: Fatine Young (right) has not said much to the Malaysian media after the story of his immigration woes were picked up by local news agencies two weeks ago.

Many parties have chastised Fatine, a pre-op transsexual whose real name is Mohammed Fazdil Min Bahari.

The 36-year-old has been living in Spondon, Derby with his partner Ian Young, 30, since December last year.

After they met in Kuala Lumpur, Fatine had gone to England on a six-month tourist visa. It quickly became obvious to the couple that long-term arrangements would have to be made. Ian proposed to Fatine, and they applied to the Home Office to marry and subsequently had a civil ceremony in June at the Derby Register Office.

Since then, Fatine had twice applied for a visa to remain permanently in England but has been turned down by British government officials.

Now, he is hoping it will be third time lucky after sending another application, this time appealing to stay under the Human Rights Act and the right to a family life.

Fatine's first leave-to-remain-visa was refused in September, on the grounds of an incorrect passport photo. His second bid was rejected as it was received after the visitor's visa had expired.

Now, the couple is fearful of Fatine returning home, after his plight drew a negative response from authorities here.

In an exclusive interview with The Malay Mail, Fatine speaks his mind.

Q: Why have you chosen to remain silent up to this point to the Malaysian media?
A: I had nothing to say to them and I was just cautious and afraid if I did say anything, it would some how end up fuelling the controversy back home. Hence, my choice was to stay silent.

Q: Why was your visa application rejected? Some speculate that it was because the photo showed you as a man.
A:
My application was rejected due to a technical reason. It had to do with the wrong background colour of my photograph sent to the United Kingdom Border Agency (UKBA) and nothing else. The picture in my passport is not of me as a man as speculated by some, but as you see me now.

Q: How is your situation now?
A:
I am running out of options, and all we can do is wait for an answer from the UKBA on the outcome of my third application.

Q:  You have just made the third request for approval, how long will it take?
A:
I don’t know how long the process will take for approval. It may take months.

Q: You have been chided for overstaying illegally. Is that a fact, since you seem to be in a legal wrangle?
A:
According to the Immigration solicitor who represents me, I cannot be classified as an illegal overstayer as my application is still being processed by UKBA and my case pending.

Q: Do you feel victimised and do you feel there are those who are taking advantage of the situation by being vocal about your situation?
A:
I don’t know what to think. I have no comments on this.

Q: Should your third application fail, what is your next course of action?
A:
I believe there’s a light at the end of the tunnel. Should my third application fail, we will appeal. If they say we can't appeal, we will try another way.

Q: There are those who would claim you've shamed Malaysia, what do you say?
A:
It makes me very sad. Far from being sympathetic towards my plight, these people have singled me out from amongst thousands of overstaying Malaysians in the UK. If these people didn't turn their backs on Malaysians who have even been convicted of crimes abroad, why are they dressing me down in public? What crime have I done? I've tried my best to comply with UK Immigration laws. I followed everything by the book and even hired an Immigration lawyer to handle my application, just to ensure I don’t breach UK immigration laws. Tell me how have I brought shame to our nation? Could it stem from prejudice towards me as a pre-op transsexual who was registered at birth as Mohammed Fazdil Min Bahari?

Q: There have been questions pertaining to whether you are still a Muslim.
A:
As ignorant as I am, my faith has not strayed. I am still a Muslim, and I still carry out my religious duties as expected of me.

Q: Do you think people were confused over the terms marriage and civil partnership? Is it the same or does it just bear similarities?
A:
A civil partnership is an agreement, which validates my relationship with Ian within the civil laws of England. It has nothing to do with religion. Ian is still practising his own religion, and so am I.

Q: You have been following Press reports concerning your case in Malaysia. What do you think of what has been said about you?
A:
I am not an artiste or a popular personality, so there is no need for the media in Malaysia to sensationalise my story.

Q: What is one thing you would say to Malaysians in general?
A:
Not all Malaysians have been vicious and hateful towards me. There have been those who have been sympathetic and offered moral support and advice. To them and the many non-governmental organisations that
have supported me – thank you so much. I am appreciative of all that you’ve done for me, and only God can repay the kindness you’ve shown.

Q: If you have to choose between never coming back to Malaysia, or leaving Ian, what will you do?
A:
I will never leave Ian. He is a really, really good person who really wants to take care of me. He accepts me for who I am and what I am. Someone who is not ashamed to face up to society, and who is willing to go through all this with me. We will fight for my visa together, and hopefully be able to spend the rest of our lives
together. Only death can tear us apart.

Q: Some quarters have urged you to come home and promise 'help' if you do, are you reassured by that?
A:
I have no idea what 'help' they’re offering, so I will refrain from commenting.

Q: How is your relationship with your family now? You have reportedly been disowned and that your mother is ill.
A:
My relationship with my family is getting better. I do not deny, not all my siblings are accepting, some are okay with the situation and some are just shocked and angry. But my mother has forgiven me and understands my current situation of not being able to see her. We are growing stronger by the day through our contact by phone. She is constantly praying for my safety and wellbeing. As for claims that my mother is unwell, it’s a twist of words supposedly from my sister by a tabloid.

Q: You have primarily been seeking support for your case on Facebook but there have also been hateful comments. Do you have anything to say to these people?
A:
To those who have nothing nice to say in Facebook's 'Right To Stay Together' group, I say enough with what you’re doing. There is no need to insult me or my friends who extend support. These people act so pious but one wonders if they are aware that their actions, especially claiming me as an apostate. That's a sin!

Q: If you could address someone here, a leader in our country, to seek aid for your situation, who would it be and what would you say?
A:
I think they have a lot more important things to think about and handle. But if there are those who are sympathetic to my plight, and can extend any form of help, I would definitely be appreciative.

Q: Do you think life will ever be the same for you after this?
A:
I don’t know if my life will ever be normal after this. I hope sooner or later, people will not talk about this anymore. Ian and I just want a simple existence, earning our keep like everyone else for a happy life together.

ALSO READ: Action against Fatine undecided yet

Comments

What ever you guys are discussing, I strongly urged that this person seek forgiveness and repent. If he still admit that he is a Muslim. He was born and named with BIN. If he choosed to live that way, it is his decision. He have the right to choose so let him choose either to be a Muslim but living like that or repent and become a 100% normal as what he was once. Islam never use 'force' in our way of life. That is for sure. He choosed his path and only God may lead the way. He'll have his punishment in akhirat if God's will.

Submitted by Islam is my Religion on Tuesday, January 26th, 2010.
I only have this to comment, a lady or a woman is born with uterus, reproductive organs and have menstrual period, can bear children. Those who do not have all these organs, are not women, these are medical facts. God has created us to be man and woman, and some people are born with two reproductive organs. Those who learn medical facts will know. God created men to be with women. There will not be any other way. Sometimes, those who do not know facts, and do not learn these basic things, will tend to deviate from facts. Do not condemn the religious facts of other religions, learn the facts first. I am here just to state the facts, not to comment on the use of he or she....

Submitted by Commentor on Friday, January 1st, 2010.
i pray that May Allah guide u my brother islam, to the straight path and it's never too late to ask for His forgiveness for Allah is Most Forgiving And Most Merciful... “A calamity that makes you turn to Allah is better for you then a blessing which makes you forget the remembrance of Allah” ~ Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah Anas (radhiallahu anhu) said that he heard the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) say: “Allah the Exalted said: “O son of Adam! As long as you invoke Me and plead to Me, I will forgive you whatever you have committed, and I will not make much of it. O son of Adam! If your evil deeds reach the borders of the sky, and then you ask Me for forgiveness, I will forgive you. O son of Adam! If you bring forth the earth full of errors, then you meet Me while you do not associate anything (or anyone) with Me, I will bring forth for you its full of forgiveness.” [At-Tirmidhee] "Be quick in the forgiveness from your Lord, and pardon (all) men - for Allah loves those who do good." [Surah 3:133-134] The Prophet (Sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) once asked his companions; "Do you know what will cause you to have high walled palaces in Paradise (as a symbol of great reward) and will cause you to be raised by God?" When they replied in the negative, he said, "To be forgiving and to control yourself in the face of provocation, to give justice to the person who was unfair and unjust to you, to give to someone even though he did not give to you when you were in need and to keep connection with someone who may not have reciprocated your concern." Similarly the Prophet (Sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said that: "The best of people are those who are slow to get angry and quick to forgive. On the other hand the worst of people are those, he said who get angry quickly but are slow to forgive". The characteristic that makes a person most likely to forgive is the purity of his or her heart. Apologies must be accepted. The Prophet (Sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said that: "Whoever apologises to his brother and that apology is not accepted, then the person who refuses to accept the apology bears the sin of one who takes the property of another unjustly." And the Prophet (Sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) also said that: "The doors of the Garden are open on Monday and Thursday. Every Muslim slave who does not associate anything with Allah is forgiven except for the man who has enmity between him and his brother." It is said, "Leave those two until they have made a reconciliation. Leave those two until they have made a reconciliation." If we look at the example and the character of the Prophet (Sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) we can see that he was always forgiving and never showed enmity to anyone except those who waged war against him. There was an old lady who used to throw rubbish in his way every day, on one occasion she did not throw rubbish in the street, so he decided to go and see what was the matter. She was ill in bed, to her amazement, the Messenger of Allah (Sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) came to see her and find out about her. She accepted Islam. This is the example of the man whom we claim to follow. Thumamah, as the chief of his tribe had killed many Muslims. On his travels, he was caught by the Muslim soldiers and was taken to the Prophet's masjid and tied to one of the pillars. The Messenger of Allah (Sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) commanded his companions to untie him and give him the best food. The Messenger of Allah (Sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was indeed a mercy for the worlds. We should similarly be merciful with each other. First of all, we ourselves should not do anything to upset our brothers and sisters (because this is in itself a part of mercy) and then we should forgive those who have upset us or made us angry. We will never be a strong ummah if we are not able to forgive. Some might say that to forgive is a sign of weakness and humiliation, and for them it is better to be strong and preserve their honor. But honor in the eyes of Allah lies in forgiveness. "But indeed if any shows patience and forgives that would truly be an exercise of courageous will and resolution in the conduct of affairs." [Surah 42:43] DO NOT REVEAL YOUR SINS From among the teachings of Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) is to keep sins a secret matter. If someone commits a sinful act which is against the Commandments of Allah, or is against the moral character, or is such an act that may cause harm to one's honor, then he should keep it a secret and seek forgiveness from Allah in the darkness of night. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: "My entire nation is safe, except al-Mujahirin (those who boast of their sins). Among the Mujaharah is that a man commits an (evil) act, and wakes up in the morning while Allah has kept his (sin) a secret, he says: "O so- and-so! Last night I did this and that." He goes to sleep while Allah has kept his (sin) a secret but he wakes up in the morning and uncovers what Allah has kept a secret!" [Saheeh al-Bukhari] Abdullah Ibn Masoud (May allah be pleased with him) related, `A man came to the Prophet and said: `O Messenger of Allah! I have mingled with a woman in the far side of al-Medina, and I fulfilled my desire short of actually having sexual intercourse with her. So, here am I, judge me according to what you decide.' Umar Ibn al-Khattab (May allah be pleased with him) then said: `Allah had kept your secret, why did not you keep your secret?' Similarly, if one becomes aware of somebody else's sin, he should keep it a secret. Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: "He, who relieves a hardship of this Dunya (world) for a believer, Allah will relieve (from him) a hardship of the Day of Resurrection; he who makes easy an indebted person, Allah will make it easy for him in the Dunya and the Hereafter; he who covers a Muslim (meaning his mistakes and shortcomings) , Allah will cover him in the Dunya and the Hereafter …" [Sahih Muslim] ============ == Today, there are also many novel channels through which sins are propagated in the society, such as books, magazines, and television programs that mention the crimes of others, illicit acts, and immorality under the name of creating awareness among the people. These programs–which are meant to help the people against the crimes– are in reality, helping the crime to spread faster in the society! Crimes, which were previously unknown to people have become common offenses! It is therefore necessary for the Muslims to avoid all such avenues which may lead to the destruction of our Muslim Ummah. ============ === Do not reveal your sins (whether major or minor), not even to your close ones such as your spouse or parents. Ask Allah for the forgiveness for the sins you committed and also ask Allah to help you to save from the same in the future. Hide and do not reveal the sins of your Muslim brothers and sisters, and non-Muslims, to others. References: Qawaaid wa-Fawaaid min al-Arabeen an-Nawawi by Shaikh Nathim Sultan, Tafseer Ibn Katheer, and others. قال احمد بن حنبل لا تقلدنى ولا تقلد مالكا ولا شافعى ولا اوزاعى ولا الثورى وخذ من حيث اخذوا

Submitted by Free Palestine on Tuesday, December 29th, 2009.
1st, it's everyone's right to choose to be with someone you love. Please do not dehumanized or belittle a relationship because it is not your 'conventional' relationship by equating it with pedophilia or incest.. what if the tables are turned around and the so called 'majority' are actually the 'minority' and you are told now that your relationships are no longer valid and it be equated to pedophilia or incest? what then, i asked you? think my friends... if everyone is really given the right and freedom to really express their sexuality.. and after a very honest consensus then you can only say who is the majority or the minority... else.. we are all just human.. homosapiens... and we should remain just that.. not a 'majority' or a 'minority' this is not our fight.. this is Fatine & Ian's fight for love, fight for the right to be together, fight for approval of her visa application.. who are we to judge.. in time we will know what we are meant to be.. how GOD intend us to be.. so let's not go do GOD's job for her/him.. let Mother of all creation decide.. else we will all be queueing indefinitely waiting for our number to play / replace GOD. some of you, maybe as a fellow muslim, feel the need to advice Fatine so you are not answerable come judgement day. good for you, you have done your duty as fellow muslimin & musliman. some of us support because we are here to support love... and that is all.. the main issue is nothing but her visa application. not everyone of us is as unfortunate as fatine to be born in the wrong body.. but we have our own burdens and crosses to bear.. shouldn't you then know and understand that while you want to remove roadblocks in your life that both Fatine and Ian, wanting to achieve the same goals too? why continuously throw them more hurdles and put roadblocks to deter them from their goals of happiness? would you want someone to do the same to you? we all have same sets of problems and worries in life whether you want to agree or not with me.. if things are really 'that' black and white i guess it's quite straightforward.. unfortunately it is never black and white...... life, my friends, are full of colours.... some tolerance, understanding, empathy are the essence of what love are made of... do not just judge and comment from the comforts of your home, your office.. in your plush seats and your luxurious, less troubled life.. it is just plain unfair.. would you like the same thing to happen for you too? having ppl judge you from afar? knowing nothing about your life, character assassinating you? because only the person who shoulder the burdens in life who can fully understand that it is not as simple as just a few words... Malay Mail, if you are the paper that cares, please continue to do more research work and do not stray from your corporate 'branding'. Fatine is She, not a He.. Do not label others by that few cm of what was trapped in between of our legs. Respect her as a she. Everyone of us here, we want to belong to a society who really cares, who really has empathy, understanding.. I am sure all of you do prefer that none of your neighbours are ever ready with stones to cast on you should you do anything that offends them or are not in line with their vision and mission in life.. right? Have a merry xmas and GBE...

Submitted by Nicole Foo on Thursday, December 24th, 2009.
All of you who talk about religion and faith are hypocrites. Every individual is free to perform whatever act he/she wishes to do be it against or according to the religion. Remember that only GOD can judge someone as He is the only one who hears all and sees all. We as humans can only perform what GOD has asked us to do and hope that He will bestow his rewards upon us accordingly. Who are we to go around judging other peple when the only person who has the right to do so is GOD Himself.

Submitted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 23rd, 2009.
You are obviously not a Muslim since you cannot understand. Islam is not only faith but also a way of life. These two goes together. If you don't follow the way of life and choose to be a homosexual you are obviously not a Muslim. But why this Fatine still wants to claim he still follows the religion is beyond me. What to do?? born a muslim leave him little choice. If he marries a man, and openly a homosexual, the punishment is death. If he chose to be a homosexual openly and leave the religion, the punishment is still death. (Well, if M'sia follows the Hudud law)

Submitted by Curious on Wednesday, December 23rd, 2009.
Oh goodness gracious Curious, what a typically shallow, shallow mind you have there. Just because one person does not "conform" to one teaching of Islam, he/she should not label himself/herself as a Muslim anymore? Who do you think you are? GOD? You think YOU have the rights to determine what Fatine's belief should/should not be now?

Submitted by Teff on Monday, December 21st, 2009.
Teff, you are the one who doesn't understand. If he calls himself a muslim he has to adhere to the rules and regulations of the religion.Being a muslim , you are within a 'group' and to maintain peace every member of the group will have to follow the rules of the group. If one doesn't follow and let be there will be chaos. Since he decided to marry a man, and not follow the rule of the group, might as well leave the group (Islam). If the group allows him to be in the 'group' then there will be chaos. Because every member of the group will think on how easy it is to just break the rules and get away with it. Do you understand??

Submitted by Curious on Wednesday, December 23rd, 2009.
You know ... it's better if this fatine doesn't consider himself a muslim anymore. But doing something against the teaching of Islam and confirm himself a muslim is really stupid. ... if fatine is not a muslim, if he wants to marry a cow also I wouldn't really care. But since he declares himself still following the teaching.... You cannot pick and choose what you want to practice and not. I really hate it when people try to change the religion according to their whims and fancy and saying "let God decide". Hasn't God decided in His teachings?? Good grief.

Submitted by Curious on Thursday, December 17th, 2009.
According to your logic, someone should leave Islam just because they commit one sin? That's really funny bro :P Look around you, everyone sins, nobody is perfect. + You already know what the punishment for leaving Islam is anyway.. You honestly think she should've said that she isn't a Muslim anymore?

Submitted by Anonymous on Friday, December 18th, 2009.
Its better she/he leaves Islam otherwise other people will said that Islam is very cruel to the followers, She/He make bad name to Islam the will end up if She/He said follow his/her husband religion nobody will bother. Agreed everybody make sins and you will repent if you aware your sind not made thing become worse.

Submitted by Salahuddin al Ayubi on Monday, December 21st, 2009.
Anon, in Islam there are separate styles of praying. If fatine says he/she( I can't even figure what to call) a muslim, she must be praying the Islamic way. So what she wears a 'telekung' to pray like the ladies? Cover from top to toe while praying? I'm just curious. In Islam it is already stated marriage (regardless civil or religious) between man and man is a explicitly not allowed. There is no picking what she wants to practice in islam and say she still follows the teaching. Just plain stupid and shows her ignorance even more. Everybody sins but would you justify your sins or try to be better instead? the punishment of leaving Islam and being a homosexual is the same if really follow the Islamic teaching. Would there be any difference if she says she's not a muslim anymore? For me at least it saves her from showing a bigger ignorance on her part. Btw Malaysia doesn't follow the Hudud law. She doesn't have to be afraid of being hanged in Public like what Iran is doing.

Submitted by Curious on Saturday, December 19th, 2009.
It has been repeatedly noted that Fatine is female in gender. It is also noted many times that this is not a same sex marriage. Along with it, is the mention of courtesy and respect of addressing Fatine by the correct gender with "she" and "her". Somehow people are still bigoted. Let us make it simple. If it looks like a girl, feels like a girl, thinks like a girl, smells like a girl, hears like a girl etc then it is a Girl. Female. Woman. Period. How many more stubborness can anyone have to still be in denial. There is also no mention whatsoever about marriages between the same sex (not that it is relevant in this context, but since people love to call transsexuals as "homosexuals" or whatever even though they do not have sex, then I will address it too.) in any Abrahamic Holy Books. The cultural aspects of marriage has always been genderless anyways, tens of thousands of years even before Abrahamic religions came about. As for the tip of the ice of the ignorant person, Iran allows transsexuals to get a sex change, and even pays for it (albet there is yet another political scenario involved here) with no hanging as some claimed here. (socyberty.com/gay-lesbians/in-iran-homosexuals-put-to-death-but-transsexuals-are-okay/). It is therefore, amazing for someone to repeatedly try to accuse one party of ignorance when the person making that claim is actually doing most of the uninformed, unknowlegeable, uneducated and ignorant remarks. But sadly, most people do kopi shop talks in Malaysia with no substance and spout myths. Sadly, this shows the Malaysian third world mentality claims, to be really true.

Submitted by Yuki Choe on Monday, December 21st, 2009.
Yuki, here is something I'd like to highlight on what I've found out on wikipedia regarding Iran allowing sex change. The report further states that currently, it is not possible for presumed transsexual individuals to choose not to undergo surgery - if they are approved for sex reassignment, they are expected to undergo treatment immediately. Those who wish to remain "non-operative" (as well as those who crossdress and/or identify as genderqueer) are considered their biological gender, and as such they are likely to face harassment as being homosexuals and subject to the same laws barring homosexual acts. Note: 1. " if they are approved" = not all are allowed to undergo gender change. 2.Those who wish to remain "non-operative" like Fatine is considered as being homosexual.

Submitted by Curious on Monday, December 21st, 2009.
So what you are saying is it is okay for homosexuals to go for sex change procedures even though they are homosexual, and not transsexual? Are you also tacitly implying that homosexual = Fatine? Do you actually agree with Iran's policy of forcing one person in relationship to go for a sex change to conform to gender roles? What is homosexuality to you? Please do not say sodomy, because it is also inclusive of heterosexuals. And please do look at Fatine. Again. Homosexuals like men. So why would Ian look for her? Think about this. Then perhaps you will finally understand what is gender. And since you like to wiki too, wiki on "gender", "gender identity disorder", and "transsexualism". Perhaps you will be enlightened.

Submitted by Yuki Choe on Thursday, December 24th, 2009.
Curious, here is where you choose to ignore facts again. Let me put it to you again. Being considered homosexual is not the same as being perceived homosexual. In Iran, it is a forced change for homosexuals to confine to gender roles (so I take it you agree to that stance?). There is no diagnosis, and no doctors. Just plain force or die. Transsexualism is a medical condition. In case you ignore this again, I will stress on it again. Transsexualism is a medical condition. Gender IS between the brains, and I am tired of pasting valid research on brain neurology only to be thrown only to be ignored by your limited understanding and refusal to accept the facts. Gender is not simple. I stress again. Swyer Syndrome. Klinefelter Syndrome. 17BHDD. 5ARD. Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Turner Syndrome. ETC. So many evidences of gender that is defined only by the complex mix of psychology, biology, chromosoms, hormones, and so many other factors. Yet you define it by hearsay "he", and perhaps with a little obsession on sex organs. Again and again, you choose to justify your own bias to the case. Okay, let me just ask you this pertinent questions: 1) What do you call a transsexual female that do not like male or female relationships (asexual)? Or do you presume all transsexuals are homosexuals? 2) Transsexualism, is again, a medical condition. Do you consider a medical condition, that has taken the lives of hundreds to thousands per year because of suffocation and non-transition, a "sin"? 3) Based on all the evidences given above, do you really think gender is really on the "organ"? 4) All these, and plentiful for research, stretching over decades of trial and error through electrocution therapy and mental torture, has now come our with all the facts, even come out with a transsexual gene, a longer androgen receptor. Do you disagree with the scientific medical norm? 5) Men like you have estrogen (female hormones) in you, and at many times higher of those of post-menoposal woman. Do that qualify you to be a he/she too? Do you really wish to contest that all of the realities of the world should be rejected to suit your shallow knowledge now?

Submitted by Yuki Choe on Wednesday, December 23rd, 2009.
Yuki, no matter how you put it, Fatine was a Muslim. His/her condition will always be seen in the Islamic view. Islam never had and never will accept transgender, homosexuality or anything that relates to this. He/she was born a man and till the end he/she will be considered a man. And marriage between man and man is homosexuality. Well, regarding Iran paying for transsexual to get sex change. For your info Yuki, most probably those were Khunsas. Islam allow Khunsas to change their gender.If Fatine is is one, he/she shouldn't worry. But since he/she is so afraid to come back to M'sia, most probably he/she isn't a Khunsa. Iran being a country stricter than M'sia, hanging homosexuals in front of the public, do you honestly think they would accept people like Fatine?? To Muslims, God's words and the Prophet's teaching is above all others. Saying that people are mistaken in seeing Fatine's situation, might as well telling them that God is wrong. Maybe according to Fatine supporters and people like you, being a Muslim is like having an old fashioned, third world, "kampung" mentality. You know, I sincerely sympathize with Fatine. But nope won't accept his/her excuses.

Submitted by Curious on Monday, December 21st, 2009.
Nope, God is not wrong. Humans are. Just answer these simple questions. Do you really think transsexualism, a medical condition recognized by the World Health Organization, condemns transsexuals to be born with "sin" automatically in them? Do you think it is justifiable for thousands of transsexual suicide every year, for anyone to continuously play judge to their gender identity? What would you call a transsexual that does not have any attractions to either gender (asexuality), are they homosexual? Do you know that every living being is female in womb first? Do you realise that all human beings are technically females at fetus before the either hormones kick in? (Note: that is why even men have nipples) Do you know that men have estrogen (yes, female hormones) levels that at times are higher than those of post-menoposal women? So how do you judge gender? By the simplest of logic, that would mean men actually started out as women. Then, look at the list of anomalies. Swyer Syndrome. 5 alpha Reductase Deficiency. Klinefelter and Turner Syndrome. Chromosomal mosaicisms eg 46xx/46xy. Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. 17 beta Hydroxysteroid Hidrogenase Deficientiy. In all this, what is gender, but the result of the complex mix of biological circumstances. Look at Fatine. The only reason she cannot be the "man" you wanted is because she IS already a girl. I believe no one is "kampung" or old-fashioned. It is total ignorance, inability to accept and lack of understanding towards another normal human being.

Submitted by Yuki Choe on Thursday, December 24th, 2009.
"..most probably those were Khunsas"? What do you have to back this claim? "Sex changes have been legal since the late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, spiritual leader of the 1979 Islamic revolution, passed a fatwa authorising them nearly 25 years ago. Whereas homosexuality is considered a sin, transsexuality is categorised as an illness subject to cure." In what position are you to say this spiritual leader is wrong?

Submitted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 23rd, 2009.
Hi Curious, Where is the line, then? Who is a Muslim, and who isn't? Does not believing in a single Islamic law - forfeit their status as a Muslim? Polygamy? Apostacy? Homosexuality? I'm sure not all Muslims feel the same way about these issues.. Do you think everyone who doesn't pray 5 times a day should leave Islam, then? Let's just say it's one of those things that they didn't "pick" to practice.. P.S. Maybe she wouldn't be hanged - but ridiculing by the Malaysian public (not by everyone, of course) is a very real issue that could happen again (remember Lina Joy?). Then again, the ridiculing has already begun.. so I guess there's no escaping it either way :/

Submitted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 20th, 2009.
Anon I dont think your really understand Islam please by books on all the issue you mention and undestand the meaning before you can debate in this forum. You only condemn other people belief without knowing what you talking about. If you really expert about other people belief than you will not talk this nonse.

Submitted by Salahuddin al Ayubi on Monday, December 21st, 2009.
Feel free to tell me where I'm wrong. I am merely saying that Curious has no right to ask people to leave their religion. "And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner (unto those who do not share their beliefs). Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is man's foe...Hence, We have not sent you (unto men O Prophet) with POWER TO DETERMINE THEIR FAITH" (Chapter 17, Al-Isra' : 53 - 54)

Submitted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 23rd, 2009.
I couldnt agree more with Rudy. Saying that Fatine deserves a life that she leads is not the same as taking her side or encouraging homosexuality. Fatines just deserves to lead the life and walk the path she chooses, end of story! Stop with the shallow-mindedness!

Submitted by Teff on Wednesday, December 16th, 2009.
It's such irony that those muslims fundamentalist who critics Fatine of her well being are always the ones who know nothing at all about compassion and understanding the real root of the problems. Simply because they themselves don't even have first hand knowledge about human sexuality. Believe it or not as a society Malaysian was never been thought or discussed openly about sex. It's a Taboo and look at what happen to Malaysian society now -- more moral issue than ever. Read the news lately people? Mother and daughter got busted selling babies, Imam got caught off guard by molesting another boy and many more stories that so bizarre and require pressing needs for Malaysian government to tackle on the bigger issue. But, no, instead the media and people love to gossip about other people. Fatine shouldn't go back to Malaysia as it leads to misery. Malaysian society at large are not ready for transexuals or homosexuals people. Malaysia is a great country, but living in Malaysia as transexuals with no rights even as human being -- what priviliges that Fatine has and how she can possibly contribute to the country? Not just her family disowned her, but her country too.

Submitted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 16th, 2009.
Societal fact declares Fatine's gender as a woman. Yet everyone cat-calls her with the wrong pronouns like as "he" and still insist she is a "male" which runs total opposite of her gender. Sex organs are obviously not the full marker for gender, but we see everyone trying to be an expert in conversations on genitals as markers when there are milions of cases of ambiguous genitalia and doctors look to other factors such as chromosoms, enzimes and brains. At most cases, doctors let the child grow up before furhter observation. It is that complex. Transsexualim is a medical condition, but we have so-called experts trying to debate medical science like laymen, when they do not even know anything about transgender people. Islam, even Christianity, is a personal faith. Yet people are misusing religion to condemn something which they do not understand and try to act like judges when they may have their own dirt in their closet. Moreover, they then trespass into other religions by making false claims just to justify nothing bigotry and prejudice. Look in the mirror. It is really not pretty. It shows in these claptrap comments. When you yell, "No! No!" to facts, it just proves you have issues.

Submitted by Yuki Choe on Wednesday, December 16th, 2009.
Ambiguous genitalia since birth is a medical condition. Then it is correct for the person to choose to be a male or female. Fatine does not have that condition (not from what I read). Fadzil becomes Fatine due to sexual preference rather than medical reason. There is no scientific evidence that transsexualism is a medical condition.

Submitted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 17th, 2009.
Ambiguous genitalia is not a medical condition, societies perception that having two genitalias as abnomal is a societal prejudicial condition. There is not "choice" involved. If there is, why not maintain both, since God has blessed a person with two organs? There is scientific evidence that transsexualism is a medical condition: jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034 "The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of the females (P = 0.83). In contrast, the neuron number of a female-to-male transsexual was found to be in the male range. Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers. The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder." Do not assume. There are more: sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/10/031022062408.htm "Our findings may explain why we feel male or female, regardless of our actual anatomy,” Vilain said. “These discoveries lend credence to the idea that being transgender — feeling that one has been born into the body of the wrong sex — is a state of mind." And more: journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/bps/article/PIIS0006322308010871/abstract "The research confirmed that TRANSSEXUALITY was NOT A LIFESTYLE DECISION, as some had suggested, said another team member, Trudy Kennedy, the director of the Monash Gender Dysphoria Clinic in Melbourne." Of course, many would not like to read these facts, and choose to conform to myths, because of one's prejudices and bias against people different than us. So for go ahead. Many more choose facts, than myths. And, by the way everyone, transsexualism is recognized by the World Health Organization (WHO). Enough said. wpath.org/documents/Med%20Nec%20on%202008%20Letterhead.pdf

Submitted by Yuki Choe on Thursday, December 17th, 2009.
All you fundamental Christians and Muslims, leave her alone. Why dont you go fix your own life first? If you have not committed any sin then you can start judging her. Otherwise please go mind your own business. You Christian and Muslim religious bigots, with your holier than thou attitude, are a disgrace to right-thinking people around the world.

Submitted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 16th, 2009.
Wrong pronouns to describe Fatine. She is a she. Reporting like this only makes you look like an uninformed bigot.

Submitted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 16th, 2009.
What a bunch of idiots commenting.You people are so full of yourselves. Let he without sin cast the first stone.I support for the right of his choice.I don't take a stand in saying it's right-but it's his choice. And yes, being pre-op, Fatine is still a he. And in this case,has got bigger balls than some of the so-called men here. Strange how men especially jump to criticize the third gender.Yet when they indulge in polygamy it's cool.This country is seriously in trouble. It's a chauvinistic lot dominating these comments.

Submitted by Rudy on Wednesday, December 16th, 2009.
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